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	<title>Comments on: A Dying Church</title>
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	<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/</link>
	<description>rethinking everything</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 15 May 2013 17:49:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: walk out, walk on &#8211; and the death of the church &#171; waiting for the believers</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2945</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[walk out, walk on &#8211; and the death of the church &#171; waiting for the believers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2945</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] my friend Andrew Stephens-Rennie wrote these provocative (and dare I say prophetic) words on the empireremixed blog earlier last [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my friend Andrew Stephens-Rennie wrote these provocative (and dare I say prophetic) words on the empireremixed blog earlier last [...]</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 16:01:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeffrey - Thanks so much for this post, for your insights, and those of St Aug! For me there is this tension between what has been and what will. I get frustrated at the pace of change, and yet, I find the notion of Red Wigglers incredibly valuable. That behind-the-scenes, below-the-surface kind of work, the work not always spoken of or lauded by the official channels is probably some of the most important. And, perhaps, subversive. 

I appreciate the reminder in the midst of my own frustrations, even as we seek change from within. 

andrew]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeffrey &#8211; Thanks so much for this post, for your insights, and those of St Aug! For me there is this tension between what has been and what will. I get frustrated at the pace of change, and yet, I find the notion of Red Wigglers incredibly valuable. That behind-the-scenes, below-the-surface kind of work, the work not always spoken of or lauded by the official channels is probably some of the most important. And, perhaps, subversive. </p>
<p>I appreciate the reminder in the midst of my own frustrations, even as we seek change from within. </p>
<p>andrew</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Metcalfe</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2723</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeffrey Metcalfe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:56:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To continue with the compost metaphor: there are always more entities whose lives are entwined with compost than we are aware of. 

Thinking about my own diocese in Quebec, after the Canadian government and the major corporations (e.g. via rail and the airlines) have abandoned our rural farming communities and fishing villages (now that their existence has been deemed unprofitable), the Anglican Church of Canada along with the Roman Catholic Church are often the last institutions left that advocate on behalf of the people there. A year or two ago, for instance, it was a potluck meal hosted by the Anglican Bishop of Quebec and the Roman Catholic Bishop of Gaspésie on a via rail track (in front of what was a moving train I might add) that restored full via rail service to the community of Gaspé.

In the Anglican community I am a part of in Toronto, Church of the Redeemer, we feed upwards of 100 people two meals every week day.

Elsewhere in Toronto, there is an Anglican community that is providing sanctuary to a family of refugees our government is trying to deport back into harms way -- a very political act that only works because of institutional structures and secrecy.

If the Anglican Church of Canada were to institutionally collapse or die in the straightforward way suggested, it is difficult to understand how that would benefit many of the most vulnerable people who depend upon the institution of the church. Speaking as a bourgeois intellectual, I understand and share the excitement of being able to start over, to craft something new, but that is a luxury that many others cannot afford. As St. Augustine understood, celebrating the fall of the empire mistakes the true object of hope as much as celebrating its triumphs: in both cases the destiny of empire determines the hope of humanity.

I entirely agree that the institution needs to be transformed, and dramatically, but - to return to the compost metaphor - there are many already working away at this task beneath the surface, within the institution. It sounds like you are one of them. I like to think of them as red wigglers: quietly munching away at the shit and turning it into something the world can use. They tend not to be as visible as much of the problematic aspects of the church: red wrigglers avoid the light.

Jeffrey Metcalfe

(p.s. I invite you the check out catholiccommons.ca, to see what some other red wrigglers are up to).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To continue with the compost metaphor: there are always more entities whose lives are entwined with compost than we are aware of. </p>
<p>Thinking about my own diocese in Quebec, after the Canadian government and the major corporations (e.g. via rail and the airlines) have abandoned our rural farming communities and fishing villages (now that their existence has been deemed unprofitable), the Anglican Church of Canada along with the Roman Catholic Church are often the last institutions left that advocate on behalf of the people there. A year or two ago, for instance, it was a potluck meal hosted by the Anglican Bishop of Quebec and the Roman Catholic Bishop of Gaspésie on a via rail track (in front of what was a moving train I might add) that restored full via rail service to the community of Gaspé.</p>
<p>In the Anglican community I am a part of in Toronto, Church of the Redeemer, we feed upwards of 100 people two meals every week day.</p>
<p>Elsewhere in Toronto, there is an Anglican community that is providing sanctuary to a family of refugees our government is trying to deport back into harms way &#8212; a very political act that only works because of institutional structures and secrecy.</p>
<p>If the Anglican Church of Canada were to institutionally collapse or die in the straightforward way suggested, it is difficult to understand how that would benefit many of the most vulnerable people who depend upon the institution of the church. Speaking as a bourgeois intellectual, I understand and share the excitement of being able to start over, to craft something new, but that is a luxury that many others cannot afford. As St. Augustine understood, celebrating the fall of the empire mistakes the true object of hope as much as celebrating its triumphs: in both cases the destiny of empire determines the hope of humanity.</p>
<p>I entirely agree that the institution needs to be transformed, and dramatically, but &#8211; to return to the compost metaphor &#8211; there are many already working away at this task beneath the surface, within the institution. It sounds like you are one of them. I like to think of them as red wigglers: quietly munching away at the shit and turning it into something the world can use. They tend not to be as visible as much of the problematic aspects of the church: red wrigglers avoid the light.</p>
<p>Jeffrey Metcalfe</p>
<p>(p.s. I invite you the check out catholiccommons.ca, to see what some other red wrigglers are up to).</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2553</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2553</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gregor - Many thanks for your comment, and for drawing my attention back to the Table. Surely this is what we celebrate week-in and week-out. Surely this is what forms us and transforms us as we die to the old life, and are renewed in Christ&#039;s resurrection. 

My only fear is that we&#039;ve tried our best to anaesthetize the table, and her elements, to not fully embrace what we proclaim in words each and every week - that in dying we are raised to new life. It&#039;s almost as if we need a weekly check-in - how have we died this week, how has God raised us to life anew? 

If the power of the cross, if the power of the Eucharistic feast does not flow forth beyond the walls of the church, what does that say about our faith - that is, our fidelity to the gospel we proclaim?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gregor &#8211; Many thanks for your comment, and for drawing my attention back to the Table. Surely this is what we celebrate week-in and week-out. Surely this is what forms us and transforms us as we die to the old life, and are renewed in Christ&#8217;s resurrection. </p>
<p>My only fear is that we&#8217;ve tried our best to anaesthetize the table, and her elements, to not fully embrace what we proclaim in words each and every week &#8211; that in dying we are raised to new life. It&#8217;s almost as if we need a weekly check-in &#8211; how have we died this week, how has God raised us to life anew? </p>
<p>If the power of the cross, if the power of the Eucharistic feast does not flow forth beyond the walls of the church, what does that say about our faith &#8211; that is, our fidelity to the gospel we proclaim?</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2552</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2552</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian - I love that tshirt, and I love the level to which you&#039;re willing to take it. I know that I struggle with what self-sacrifice means - personally, ecclesiologically, all of it. And yet, at the end of the day I truly do want to offer up my body, this church of which I&#039;m a part to the possibility of what might come next. 

I&#039;m just afraid that too often we opt for embalming a body that should be allowed to decay, holding onto and preserving something that we must let die, in order for life to emerge anew. Perhaps that&#039;s what gets to me - our modern fear of death and dying leads to the denial of the possibility of new life. 

In so doing, we hold on, preserve, and create museums of Egyptian Pharoahs and ancient Cathedrals. We do so, it seems to me, not in the hope of new life, but transfixed by the long dead. Will new life spring from such a posture? Not likely. 

What then will we do not to stand in the way of new and abundant life?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian &#8211; I love that tshirt, and I love the level to which you&#8217;re willing to take it. I know that I struggle with what self-sacrifice means &#8211; personally, ecclesiologically, all of it. And yet, at the end of the day I truly do want to offer up my body, this church of which I&#8217;m a part to the possibility of what might come next. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m just afraid that too often we opt for embalming a body that should be allowed to decay, holding onto and preserving something that we must let die, in order for life to emerge anew. Perhaps that&#8217;s what gets to me &#8211; our modern fear of death and dying leads to the denial of the possibility of new life. </p>
<p>In so doing, we hold on, preserve, and create museums of Egyptian Pharoahs and ancient Cathedrals. We do so, it seems to me, not in the hope of new life, but transfixed by the long dead. Will new life spring from such a posture? Not likely. </p>
<p>What then will we do not to stand in the way of new and abundant life?</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2551</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 15:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lon - That&#039;s what I&#039;m talking about. It&#039;s exciting and scary all at once. It means sacrifice, it means giving up ourselves and our own private kingdoms for the good of the greater, for the good of God&#039;s. And yet, so hard to do. Oh that we could let go, when the time was right. 

I think about Kester Brewin&#039;s experience at Vaux - creating something beautiful, mystical, that eventually had to be allowed to die. The effects of that community still carry on, even though it no longer exists in its gathered form. Oh death, where is thy sting?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lon &#8211; That&#8217;s what I&#8217;m talking about. It&#8217;s exciting and scary all at once. It means sacrifice, it means giving up ourselves and our own private kingdoms for the good of the greater, for the good of God&#8217;s. And yet, so hard to do. Oh that we could let go, when the time was right. </p>
<p>I think about Kester Brewin&#8217;s experience at Vaux &#8211; creating something beautiful, mystical, that eventually had to be allowed to die. The effects of that community still carry on, even though it no longer exists in its gathered form. Oh death, where is thy sting?</p>
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		<title>By: Gregor</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2550</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gregor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 02:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2550</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A dying church – YES! Are we not called to die every day, dying to all of the idols we bow to – our need for power, control, affection, esteem, security - die to the over-identification to our group and our own self righteousness?  Only to consent to be resurrected – to be sanctified, divinized into the image we are created to be? Surely, this is what is at the heart of our faith… “Following on the early Christian creed, often quoted from St Athanatius – ‘God became man that man would become God.’ 

The joy of dying with the Assembly is that it is only together, with all my broken sisters and brothers, that we journey on this great pilgrimage. And it is only together that we embrace resurrection…So let us continue to die and rise – and gather in the great death and resurrection of the Eucharist and become who we are. 

Let us die and rise on the 8th day of creation, and break bread with female clergy, and LGBT sisters and brothers, and offer up our brokenness as incense, and the lifting up of our hands as an evening sacrifice&quot; at the banquet of creation…As St Irenaeous says: “Our teaching is in harmony with the Eucharist and the Eucharist confirms our teaching.” 

Shall we gather at the table? Oh death, where is your sting?

Your brother in Christ, Gregor]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A dying church – YES! Are we not called to die every day, dying to all of the idols we bow to – our need for power, control, affection, esteem, security &#8211; die to the over-identification to our group and our own self righteousness?  Only to consent to be resurrected – to be sanctified, divinized into the image we are created to be? Surely, this is what is at the heart of our faith… “Following on the early Christian creed, often quoted from St Athanatius – ‘God became man that man would become God.’ </p>
<p>The joy of dying with the Assembly is that it is only together, with all my broken sisters and brothers, that we journey on this great pilgrimage. And it is only together that we embrace resurrection…So let us continue to die and rise – and gather in the great death and resurrection of the Eucharist and become who we are. </p>
<p>Let us die and rise on the 8th day of creation, and break bread with female clergy, and LGBT sisters and brothers, and offer up our brokenness as incense, and the lifting up of our hands as an evening sacrifice&#8221; at the banquet of creation…As St Irenaeous says: “Our teaching is in harmony with the Eucharist and the Eucharist confirms our teaching.” </p>
<p>Shall we gather at the table? Oh death, where is your sting?</p>
<p>Your brother in Christ, Gregor</p>
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		<title>By: B. Walsh</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2549</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[B. Walsh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2012 00:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;... what nutrients would be offered up to new life for generations to follow?&quot;

That is a very provocative and hopeful last line, Andrew. 

A Rocha Canada has a tee shirt out with the words &quot;I plan to compost this shirt&quot; on the chest. As my daughter wears that shirt around the farm, my comment has been, &quot;I plan to compost this body.&quot;

Compost. That&#039;s where the nutrients lie for generations to follow. On the farm most of that compost comes from manure. Horse, cow  and human shit. That&#039;s good, generative stuff. 

Maybe, just maybe, all of the bull shit that is the church - Anglican and otherwise - will be allowed to decompose and from that ecclesiastical compost there will be nutrients offered up to new life for generations to follow.

But you got to get the shit out to make that happen.

Maybe, just maybe this body will decompose and there will be nutrients offered up to new life for generations to follow.

But for that to happen, the body has got to die.

Christ crucified indeed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; what nutrients would be offered up to new life for generations to follow?&#8221;</p>
<p>That is a very provocative and hopeful last line, Andrew. </p>
<p>A Rocha Canada has a tee shirt out with the words &#8220;I plan to compost this shirt&#8221; on the chest. As my daughter wears that shirt around the farm, my comment has been, &#8220;I plan to compost this body.&#8221;</p>
<p>Compost. That&#8217;s where the nutrients lie for generations to follow. On the farm most of that compost comes from manure. Horse, cow  and human shit. That&#8217;s good, generative stuff. </p>
<p>Maybe, just maybe, all of the bull shit that is the church &#8211; Anglican and otherwise &#8211; will be allowed to decompose and from that ecclesiastical compost there will be nutrients offered up to new life for generations to follow.</p>
<p>But you got to get the shit out to make that happen.</p>
<p>Maybe, just maybe this body will decompose and there will be nutrients offered up to new life for generations to follow.</p>
<p>But for that to happen, the body has got to die.</p>
<p>Christ crucified indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Lon</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2012/08/06/a-dying-church/#comment-2548</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2012 19:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.com/?p=1503#comment-2548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Love this post Andrew - I wrote a bit about my proposal to model christ-crucified and  &#039;end&#039; the church I led here - http://solarcrash.com/2011/11/ending-church/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love this post Andrew &#8211; I wrote a bit about my proposal to model christ-crucified and  &#8216;end&#8217; the church I led here &#8211; <a href="http://solarcrash.com/2011/11/ending-church/" rel="nofollow">http://solarcrash.com/2011/11/ending-church/</a></p>
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