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	<title>Comments on: Hurt, Love and Empire</title>
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	<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/</link>
	<description>rethinking everything</description>
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		<title>By: YeonJoo</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[YeonJoo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 20:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Why is it that some American Christians (certainly not all) are so sensitive when they hear criticism of American foreign policy, American pretension, American deceit?&quot;

Someone I admire once said that thinking needs to be guided by affection to be real and true. It is important that affection and love be our guide for appropriate thought and action (see Wendell Berry). I don&#039;t think criticism in general of their nation is difficult for American Christian to hear. I think it is criticism said without affection that is difficult to bear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why is it that some American Christians (certainly not all) are so sensitive when they hear criticism of American foreign policy, American pretension, American deceit?&#8221;</p>
<p>Someone I admire once said that thinking needs to be guided by affection to be real and true. It is important that affection and love be our guide for appropriate thought and action (see Wendell Berry). I don&#8217;t think criticism in general of their nation is difficult for American Christian to hear. I think it is criticism said without affection that is difficult to bear.</p>
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		<title>By: faucetboy</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[faucetboy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-210</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Brian,

Great post.  I just found it, but wanted to comment.  I am an American, and I have thought about these things a lot in recent years as I have lived out of country doing mission work.  When you get outside the U.S. and gain better perspective on how we treat the rest of the world, it&#039;s bothering.

I think the reason Americans tend to be so defensive about any criticism of our country is for the same reason the problem is there in the first place--consciously or subconsciously, we have this idea that we&#039;re the Israel of the New Testament.  We think we are God&#039;s specially chosen nation; His gift to the world.  Your quotation of GWB in your post brings it out perfectly.  If we go to war, it&#039;s then a holy war--God is on our side.  Criticism falls on deaf ears, because you can&#039;t criticize what God has chosen.  When that&#039;s the mentality, it&#039;s hard to acknowledge our own imperialism.

Generally speaking, I think the Christians in our country have the hardest time seeing it, because we&#039;re the ones caught up in the &#039;God&#039;s chosen nation&#039; mentality.  Non-Christians, who don&#039;t have that to deal with, are tending to be more bothered by our country&#039;s imperialism these days.

By the way, I didn&#039;t find your post to be overly critical or out of line (though I don&#039;t know what else you&#039;ve been saying).  I don&#039;t mind when a Canadian shares thoughtful, respectful criticism of our country.  I live and work with a few Canadians, so I&#039;m used to it.  They have helped me to recognize some of our arrogance as a country.

To the Americans out there, having some criticism of our country doesn&#039;t mean we don&#039;t love our country.  I think we should work on laying our sensitivity aside long enough to hear and understand what people think and why they think it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Brian,</p>
<p>Great post.  I just found it, but wanted to comment.  I am an American, and I have thought about these things a lot in recent years as I have lived out of country doing mission work.  When you get outside the U.S. and gain better perspective on how we treat the rest of the world, it&#8217;s bothering.</p>
<p>I think the reason Americans tend to be so defensive about any criticism of our country is for the same reason the problem is there in the first place&#8211;consciously or subconsciously, we have this idea that we&#8217;re the Israel of the New Testament.  We think we are God&#8217;s specially chosen nation; His gift to the world.  Your quotation of GWB in your post brings it out perfectly.  If we go to war, it&#8217;s then a holy war&#8211;God is on our side.  Criticism falls on deaf ears, because you can&#8217;t criticize what God has chosen.  When that&#8217;s the mentality, it&#8217;s hard to acknowledge our own imperialism.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, I think the Christians in our country have the hardest time seeing it, because we&#8217;re the ones caught up in the &#8216;God&#8217;s chosen nation&#8217; mentality.  Non-Christians, who don&#8217;t have that to deal with, are tending to be more bothered by our country&#8217;s imperialism these days.</p>
<p>By the way, I didn&#8217;t find your post to be overly critical or out of line (though I don&#8217;t know what else you&#8217;ve been saying).  I don&#8217;t mind when a Canadian shares thoughtful, respectful criticism of our country.  I live and work with a few Canadians, so I&#8217;m used to it.  They have helped me to recognize some of our arrogance as a country.</p>
<p>To the Americans out there, having some criticism of our country doesn&#8217;t mean we don&#8217;t love our country.  I think we should work on laying our sensitivity aside long enough to hear and understand what people think and why they think it.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-186</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andrew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 02:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-186</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just listened to a podcast with Chuck Colson, Shane Claiborne and Greg Boyd on Krista Tippett&#039;s &quot;Speaking of Faith&quot; American Public Media &lt;a href=&quot;http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/evangelical_politics/&quot; title=&quot;website&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;. I found it interesting to listen to three generations of evangelicals deal with questions of politics, and the necessary Christian response, throughout this interview.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just listened to a podcast with Chuck Colson, Shane Claiborne and Greg Boyd on Krista Tippett&#8217;s &#8220;Speaking of Faith&#8221; American Public Media <a href="http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/evangelical_politics/" title="website" rel="nofollow">. I found it interesting to listen to three generations of evangelicals deal with questions of politics, and the necessary Christian response, throughout this interview.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-175</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 04:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-175</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi all,

Brian, thank you for this reflection; I have been mulling over the question that you posed since first reading this post a few days ago, and having just returned home to the States, it seemed like a good time to offer my thoughts.

I think that equating America as so strongly with empire can be problematic and potentially hurtful for Americans for two reasons.

First, I don’t think that the underlying elements of empire as you identify them are inherently American. To be sure, the U.S. has and continues to commit grievous ethical violations in order to perpetuate its dominance in the world. However, I think that the impulses that fuel this pursuit of power – a penchant for ever-increasing material consumption, a zeal for security at all costs, a failure to fully acknowledge the concerns of the world’s poor – are more systemic sins that befall many countries, even if the U.S. is the easiest perpetrator tor identify.

Second, I think that holding fast to the language of America as empire closes off the possibility of a reflective and redemptive patriotism could actually inspire the kind of change we want to see in the country. I don’t think many Americans would be interested in engaging the state if it really is nothing more than the evil empire looking only to secure its future. I am angered by American nationalism that ignores the sins of our past and present, but I also saddened when any expression of patriotism is necessarily conflated with blind nationalism. I believe that if Americans are truly going to change the country for the better, we must first be inspired by an ethic of loving one’s neighbor and enemy, but I don’t see such change being possible without a national narrative that reminds us what our country has been and what it could be, a kind of narrative that I worry is denied by the language of America defined solely as empire.

Thanks again for post Brian. I have really appreciated your thoughts on the intersection of faith and politics and I look forward to hearing your comments, and those of anyone else reading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>Brian, thank you for this reflection; I have been mulling over the question that you posed since first reading this post a few days ago, and having just returned home to the States, it seemed like a good time to offer my thoughts.</p>
<p>I think that equating America as so strongly with empire can be problematic and potentially hurtful for Americans for two reasons.</p>
<p>First, I don’t think that the underlying elements of empire as you identify them are inherently American. To be sure, the U.S. has and continues to commit grievous ethical violations in order to perpetuate its dominance in the world. However, I think that the impulses that fuel this pursuit of power – a penchant for ever-increasing material consumption, a zeal for security at all costs, a failure to fully acknowledge the concerns of the world’s poor – are more systemic sins that befall many countries, even if the U.S. is the easiest perpetrator tor identify.</p>
<p>Second, I think that holding fast to the language of America as empire closes off the possibility of a reflective and redemptive patriotism could actually inspire the kind of change we want to see in the country. I don’t think many Americans would be interested in engaging the state if it really is nothing more than the evil empire looking only to secure its future. I am angered by American nationalism that ignores the sins of our past and present, but I also saddened when any expression of patriotism is necessarily conflated with blind nationalism. I believe that if Americans are truly going to change the country for the better, we must first be inspired by an ethic of loving one’s neighbor and enemy, but I don’t see such change being possible without a national narrative that reminds us what our country has been and what it could be, a kind of narrative that I worry is denied by the language of America defined solely as empire.</p>
<p>Thanks again for post Brian. I have really appreciated your thoughts on the intersection of faith and politics and I look forward to hearing your comments, and those of anyone else reading.</p>
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		<title>By: M.joshua</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M.joshua]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 18:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey Brian, those were the questions that I was asking before and after reading McLaren&#039;s Everything Must Change. It was that which inspired Byron Borger to direct me to you and your writings. They still haunt me. My impulse since surrendering to Christ has been to speak truth and damn the consequences. Since becoming a leader in a predominantly American church family, I&#039;ve had to learn greatly how to be nurturing and compassionate in two parts to my one part prophetic.

Most significantly, I&#039;m perplexed because for those of us in the Empire Subversion business are finding our occupation to be very slow going. Some days I just want to go start a counter-imperial wineskin akin to something you see in the movie Fight Club. But I know most importantly, I&#039;m to be obedient to the Spirit. He&#039;s the subverter. He&#039;s the one who gives the prophesy. I know that the deeper I abide in him, the sooner that his Kingdom is coming, the more of this Empire is falling away...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brian, those were the questions that I was asking before and after reading McLaren&#8217;s Everything Must Change. It was that which inspired Byron Borger to direct me to you and your writings. They still haunt me. My impulse since surrendering to Christ has been to speak truth and damn the consequences. Since becoming a leader in a predominantly American church family, I&#8217;ve had to learn greatly how to be nurturing and compassionate in two parts to my one part prophetic.</p>
<p>Most significantly, I&#8217;m perplexed because for those of us in the Empire Subversion business are finding our occupation to be very slow going. Some days I just want to go start a counter-imperial wineskin akin to something you see in the movie Fight Club. But I know most importantly, I&#8217;m to be obedient to the Spirit. He&#8217;s the subverter. He&#8217;s the one who gives the prophesy. I know that the deeper I abide in him, the sooner that his Kingdom is coming, the more of this Empire is falling away&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Sue</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-169</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sue]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-169</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian et al: I think Lisa&#039;s got something when she says that an outsider criticizing is harder to accept. &quot;Don&#039;t you talk to my sister that way&quot; is the brother&#039;s immediate reaction to the outsider, regardless of the truth of the comments -- and the brother would same the same and worse to his sister. 

To critique the same issues in Canada doesn&#039;t cut as close to the bone, since it&#039;s not us Canadians who are doing all that crap. Though of course had we the power Americans do, who knows what we&#039;d be up to, and with our proportionally smaller power we do proportionately smaller evil etc etc.

But you&#039;re right too! As coming from just outside the empire you can see more clearly. Inside this empire there are way more assumptions about the good of the American Way. We&#039;ve continued talking about Romans 12 -- our third week on it now -- yesterday about how practically to transform our minds. Recognize the lies of the world, of the empire, of the age, and replace them with God&#039;s promises to us, God&#039;s life for us. Hard to recognize the lies, even harder to dig them out of the depths of our emotional responses. 

I could go on but I guess I&#039;ll save it for my own post eh.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian et al: I think Lisa&#8217;s got something when she says that an outsider criticizing is harder to accept. &#8220;Don&#8217;t you talk to my sister that way&#8221; is the brother&#8217;s immediate reaction to the outsider, regardless of the truth of the comments &#8212; and the brother would same the same and worse to his sister. </p>
<p>To critique the same issues in Canada doesn&#8217;t cut as close to the bone, since it&#8217;s not us Canadians who are doing all that crap. Though of course had we the power Americans do, who knows what we&#8217;d be up to, and with our proportionally smaller power we do proportionately smaller evil etc etc.</p>
<p>But you&#8217;re right too! As coming from just outside the empire you can see more clearly. Inside this empire there are way more assumptions about the good of the American Way. We&#8217;ve continued talking about Romans 12 &#8212; our third week on it now &#8212; yesterday about how practically to transform our minds. Recognize the lies of the world, of the empire, of the age, and replace them with God&#8217;s promises to us, God&#8217;s life for us. Hard to recognize the lies, even harder to dig them out of the depths of our emotional responses. </p>
<p>I could go on but I guess I&#8217;ll save it for my own post eh.</p>
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		<title>By: Something About Context &#171; Empire Remixed</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Something About Context &#171; Empire Remixed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-167</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] post on Friday stirred up some further thoughts. As someone new to a particular context, what questions [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] post on Friday stirred up some further thoughts. As someone new to a particular context, what questions [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dale</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Apr 2008 12:14:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-166</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Heya Brian,
Dale the &#039;kiwi american&#039; here...

As I may have mentioned to you before, me moving to NZ has been hugely eye-opening for me.  I voted cheerfully for GWB, proud that I had supported the &#039;moral&#039; candidate...  Only now, I see too clearly that &lt;i&gt;everything&lt;/i&gt; is moral(!!!)... not just abortion and marriage issues...  I&#039;m upset that I could have been so narrow minded...
Now, I&#039;m not saying I think that GWB was/is the devil incarnate, but I just know things aren&#039;t so simple like I thought...

I do speculate as to how we Americans can often grow so un-discerning...  I do think kids reciting the pledge of &quot;allegiance&quot; each morning in schools is an interesting one... &#039;allegiance&#039; to what!?  the american way of life?  and what is that anyway?

You may already know of singer/songwriter Derek Webb, but he is one discerning voice.  On &#039;allegiance&#039;, check out the lyrics to &quot;a King and a Kingdom&quot; at this url:
http://www.lyricsdir.com/derek-webb-a-king-and-a-kingdom-lyrics.html

Cheers,

-d-]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heya Brian,<br />
Dale the &#8216;kiwi american&#8217; here&#8230;</p>
<p>As I may have mentioned to you before, me moving to NZ has been hugely eye-opening for me.  I voted cheerfully for GWB, proud that I had supported the &#8216;moral&#8217; candidate&#8230;  Only now, I see too clearly that <i>everything</i> is moral(!!!)&#8230; not just abortion and marriage issues&#8230;  I&#8217;m upset that I could have been so narrow minded&#8230;<br />
Now, I&#8217;m not saying I think that GWB was/is the devil incarnate, but I just know things aren&#8217;t so simple like I thought&#8230;</p>
<p>I do speculate as to how we Americans can often grow so un-discerning&#8230;  I do think kids reciting the pledge of &#8220;allegiance&#8221; each morning in schools is an interesting one&#8230; &#8216;allegiance&#8217; to what!?  the american way of life?  and what is that anyway?</p>
<p>You may already know of singer/songwriter Derek Webb, but he is one discerning voice.  On &#8216;allegiance&#8217;, check out the lyrics to &#8220;a King and a Kingdom&#8221; at this url:<br />
<a href="http://www.lyricsdir.com/derek-webb-a-king-and-a-kingdom-lyrics.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lyricsdir.com/derek-webb-a-king-and-a-kingdom-lyrics.html</a></p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>-d-</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comment Lisa, and for your disagreement. But you haven&#039;t told me why you think that this proximity to empire doesn&#039;t somehow make one more defensive. But yes, I am criticizing Canada in all of this, and I always do so explicitly, but perhaps not explicitly enough.

Here&#039;s another angle on this. Amos was an outside when he went up to Israel with his prophetic word. And Amaziah told him to shut up because this was the &quot;king&#039;s sanctuary.&quot; So there&#039;s good biblical evidence that outsiders are not very well received when they come with criticism. But might there be something about American xenophobia that plays into all of this. 

But I also think that Nathan&#039;s comment is helpful in all of this. He is right, consumerism is so inherent in our lives, so deeply rooted in our lives and our identities, that any criticism of such a worldview is going to be deeply painful. Yes, that&#039;s the point that I am making when I write about the American mythology. This is a story that is so basic to American identity that it profoundly shapes the way in which folks view, experience and therefore &quot;feel&quot; about the world.

So back to Lisa, &quot;compassionate criticism&quot; - that&#039;s what I&#039;m talking about when I talk about truth and love, prophecy and pastoral care.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comment Lisa, and for your disagreement. But you haven&#8217;t told me why you think that this proximity to empire doesn&#8217;t somehow make one more defensive. But yes, I am criticizing Canada in all of this, and I always do so explicitly, but perhaps not explicitly enough.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s another angle on this. Amos was an outside when he went up to Israel with his prophetic word. And Amaziah told him to shut up because this was the &#8220;king&#8217;s sanctuary.&#8221; So there&#8217;s good biblical evidence that outsiders are not very well received when they come with criticism. But might there be something about American xenophobia that plays into all of this. </p>
<p>But I also think that Nathan&#8217;s comment is helpful in all of this. He is right, consumerism is so inherent in our lives, so deeply rooted in our lives and our identities, that any criticism of such a worldview is going to be deeply painful. Yes, that&#8217;s the point that I am making when I write about the American mythology. This is a story that is so basic to American identity that it profoundly shapes the way in which folks view, experience and therefore &#8220;feel&#8221; about the world.</p>
<p>So back to Lisa, &#8220;compassionate criticism&#8221; &#8211; that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m talking about when I talk about truth and love, prophecy and pastoral care.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Colquhoun</title>
		<link>http://empireremixed.com/2008/04/25/hurt-love-and-empire/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Colquhoun]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://empireremixed.wordpress.com/?p=78#comment-160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Beautifully written Brian.  Your post reminds me of one I read in Adbusters last year, but instead of American policy she was talking about how consumerism is so inherent in who we are our feelings actually get hurt when we criticize it.  I posted the article below in case your interested.  It was an article that reminded me to give grace while still revolting against the empire.

http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/70/Me_Against_the_Media_From_the_Trenches_of_a_Media_Lit_Class.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beautifully written Brian.  Your post reminds me of one I read in Adbusters last year, but instead of American policy she was talking about how consumerism is so inherent in who we are our feelings actually get hurt when we criticize it.  I posted the article below in case your interested.  It was an article that reminded me to give grace while still revolting against the empire.</p>
<p><a href="http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/70/Me_Against_the_Media_From_the_Trenches_of_a_Media_Lit_Class.html" rel="nofollow">http://adbusters.org/the_magazine/70/Me_Against_the_Media_From_the_Trenches_of_a_Media_Lit_Class.html</a></p>
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